Octaves Mandolas Bracing Questions & Answers

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 10:43:15 -0600
Subject: RE: Weber Octaves Tone Bars vs X

Mickey- you must think I'm crazy- having just got the Rigel from you and wanting trade it. It's a great mandolin, no question. You might remember I tried out the breedlove from you first but didn't like the sound of the Cascade I played. Well, I found another used Cascade (yes, elsewhere as you didn't have any more used ones) and put a Brekke on it. The sound is superb and now I have two wonderful mandolins. Basically this boils down to looks rather than sound- having had an A style for years I really pine for the breedlove.

So now, I've got two great mandolins but really need only one, hence, my interest in the octave. I have always thought Tim O'Brien's sounded great (although I think he tunes it like a zook) but I can't afford a custom made Nugget. So I thought one of the Webers would be a good compromise. Naturally I want an F style rather than an A or flattie. I can swing the bitterroot financially but not a yellowstone.

So, after all that, here's my next question- what about the bracing- the Weber web site says tone bars but the Acoustic Music site says they get their's built with modified X. I favor the resonance over projection, especially since I'm leaning toward f holes- what do you think?

J. D. Voss, MD

Greetings John,

You'll most definitely want a modified X bracing...as I have on my Weber Octave Big Sky...I personally want a mandolin with a complex tonal range applicable to any musical setting...I'm not sure why Weber builds the Gallatin and Bitterroot with tone bars...

Mahogany instruments made by Weber are typically made with tone bars...Master Luthier, Bruce Weber chose the sound based on his expertise and what he thought would be the most responsive to Mahogany woods, however, personal taste may vary from player to player. Mahogany woods already offer an added warmth in tone...with X bracing added, it seems to me the Octave would have even more substance to the tonal warmth...additionally, there's more of an opening up period for tone bars...so, you also get a mandolin that does not need an opening period.

I checked with Weber today about the availability of the next Weber Bitterroot Octave and the cost of a modified X bracing...

Arrival Date: June 17 Week
Modified X Bracing: No Extra Charge

At your disposal, Mickey

Jim Hilburn Saturday, April 06, 2002 - 08:55 am
Subject: Purpose, Placement and Reasoning for both Tone Bars and X-Bracing
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I posted this information once before (on the MandolinCafe) on this subject, but for anyone who cares, here goes. I'm basically repeating what I've learned from Bob Bennedetto in his videos. X-bracing is meant to be symmetric,and how open or closed the X is,along with their shape and size, defines how the top as a whole reacts. An open X leaves a large area behind the bridge un-supported and free to vibrate, giving you a good bass response. But this has to be balanced with how treble will be effected.Tone bars are meant to work on the side of the instrument where they are placed. On the bass side, the tone bar is usually nearer the F-hole, leaving more of that side un-supported to allow for lower tones, while the treble bar is nearer the center of its half of the top, to tighten up the highs. (Used by permission from Jim...Jim Hillburn happens to also be a luthier who has made his sure of F-Style Mandolins)

Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:50:20 -0700
Subject: Bruce D. Weber (Master Luthier of Weber Mandolins)

Hi Mickey,
Thanks for thinking of us for your "info report"- we do get so many questions on this. I will give you what Bruce wrote down, let me know if it is too wordy- or you have comments. Thanks Mickey- you're a inspiration for us through your energy and creativity! Mary Weber

Modified X-Brace: X-bracing gives you that great chop right out of the box with a crisp, clear tone and awesome projection. The initial break-in period is also less with x-bracing.

Tone Bars: Tone bars give you a wonderful bell-like sustain with a rich depth of tone that will mature with time and play into that wonderful wood sound we all love. Break-in is quite a bit longer on tone bar braced instruments.

Disclaimer: Changing sound hole shape and size, using F- holes, sound board species, rim/back/neck woods all effect the tone, volume and subtleties with either bracing pattern. It's all about finding the right recipe (i.e. bracing, wood selection, graduations and desire).

Luthiery is not rocket science! We're dealing with the ever changing properties of a once living substance that we resurrect to tantalize the ears and imaginations of our players.

Bruce D. Weber

Date: 3/12/02
Subject: Steve Anderson of Breedlove Mandolins

X-Bracing: All Breedlove Models with an Oval Soundhole have X-Bracing. X-Brace Oval Hole mandolins tend to be a little more open, richer, and fuller. This tones down the natural tendency of an Oval Hole to be too bright...great for Celtic and Classical music....

Tone Bars: Tone Bars add a little more projection...a little more top end...a little more bite on the top end...great for a loud jamming situation and bluegrass settings.

Date: 3/12/02
Subject: Peter Langdell Master Luthier of Rigel Mandolins

X-Bracing: Deeper and favors the bass frequencies...

Parrallel Tone Bars: Accntuates mid to high and especially the treble range...

Rigel uses the modified X and Parrallel combined...

Bass bar is positioned of that X-bracing the treble bar is positioned like the tone bar traditionally....the point of each brace actually meet at the front of the instrument...it's not symmetrical like traditional tone bars...which adds an incredible balance between the top end and low end.

Date: 3/12/02
Subject: Peter Mix of (The Consummate Player) with Rigel Mandolins

X-Bracing: It's the least important thing to me due to the fact I've played many with both bracings that are phenomenal...so, to me, it's immaterial. If I'm playing a mandolin, I'm judging its tonal quality directly and not questioning its construction.

Parrallel Tone Bars: I've never analyzed it enough...to say whether tone bars are better than X-bracing...if I'm ordering an instrument, I let the builder determine what's best.

Rigel uses the modified X and Parrallel combined which Peter has coined as a "V-Bracing"...

V-Bracing: (V-Bracing is coined term to best describe Rigel's current bracing) With the original G-110, Peter Langdell introduced the bracing which captured the ultimate classic Rigel sound, and we feel we've arrived at exactly what we were looking for in tonal character.

Tonal characteristics that are so complex with a breadth and depth of voicing so much so it's hard to not love the way a Rigel sounds.

Date: 3/12/02
Subject: Rolfe Gerhardt (Master Luthier of Phoenix Mandolins)

My experience with X-bracing is that it limits the tonal range. I think it stiffens the top plate so it doesn't flex fully in the mid and high ranges. Maximum bass comes from the top moving as a unit, and the X brace does this very well. But there is a loss in other ranges. Experiments with different kinds of tone bars showed that the basic Gibson arrangement is about as good as it gets for the American mandolin. However, the tone can be improved by laminating the wood of the bars around a center sheet of graphite-epoxy, for further stiffness, and making the bars lighter and lower. The stiffness stays the same, but the mass is less. Experiments also showed that for a very light top made for extra lights strings, a totally different tone bar arrangement works better than traditional tone bars.
Rolfe Gerhardt
Phoenix Mandolins

Date: 3/19/02
Subject: Charlie Derrington (Production Manager of Gibson Musical Instruments)

Hi Mickey......

I may not be the person to ask. I have always preached on the folly of X-bracing.

The X brace in mandolins can best be described as "immediate gratification" with no future hope of tonal improvement. These instruments typically have more immediate bass response when new, but lack the signature mid-range tonal characteristics a mandolin should exhibit. X-bracing may also have more structural problems, in that, tops braced in this manner, are more likely to exhibit sinking from string pressure.

Tone bars will have the mid-range (if tuned properly) but will not sound as "bassy" out of the box. Tone-bar instruments will acquire the bass as break-in occurs... Whereas the X braced instruments will never acquire the mids. I also have seen many X-braced instruments turn "muddy" as the highs tend to be lost over time.

My opinions are based on my narrow vision that the Loar period instruments should be our model when building, as they are the only true example of what happens to a high quality mandolin over a very long period of time. Also, the Loar instruments are recognized as the only true tonal model, as Bill Monroe invented our music on these instruments.

Sorry for the soapbox speech, but these issues are very close to my heart.

Charlie