Vintage Violins: Jacob Jacobus Stainer Violins Fiddles

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT)

Dear Folkwood,
I have an old violin with "Stainer" imprinted on the back of it. It also has a label inside that says: Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum 1686 (with the 86 hand written). I was looking at other questions on your site, and was wondering if mine was a copy. I was also wondering if you know of any other way to find the value of this violin aside from looking on ebay. Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
James Phillip

Mr. Phillip:

Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. Stainer didn't
imprint his violins on the back. It is a copy. The
value of a violin is set by the market. Thus eBay is
a pretty accurate guide to the current value of
instruments. One can determine what a buyer right now
will pay for a particular violin by putting it on
eBay. The retail shop price will generally (but not
always) be higher. But the violin will be gone
through, will likely have a return option, and will
take longer to sell. The insurance value should be
equal to the retail shop value.

Steve Perry

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 05:26:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Jacobus Stainer violin

My name is Mary Shilts. My father gave me a violin that he said was in our family for generations. I have had it for about 7 years and never took it out of the box, as it was not all put together and I did not want to lose any pieces of it. There is a man on the island that repairs violins, and he looked at it last night and said that it was worth alot of money. So, that is why I am writing you. On the inside of the violin it says: Jacobus Stainer in Absam Prope Oenibontum 1716 On the back of the violin at the top next to the neck it says Stainer. Could you please tell me if this is worth anything and if so how much? My original thought was to have it restored, but now I am thinking that maybe leaving it alone and just putting it on display would be better. I would appreciate any answers that you could give me.
Thank you, Mary (Baker) Shilts

Ms. Shilts:

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. The
stamped-back Stainer violin you have is certainly a
copy. I don't believe I've seen a commercial Stainer
copy going for over $2000, and most are much less
expensive. The Smithsonian Institution has a web page
on Stainer that will provide illuminating.

Nevertheless, family heirlooms are always interesting
to have around. You might wish to have it restored
sufficiently to display or even to play. We do this
type of work for local families here in Tennessee and
they enjoy having the family instruments working.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Steve

Steve Perry,

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 11:11:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: stainer violin

Dear Mickey:

My husband and I have what appears to be a Stainer
violin. The label is hand written and reads: "Jacobus
Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum fecit 72" Not all the letters
are readable but we can definitely make out the "J", "iner", "In
Absam" and "Oen....m...it 72". Label looks to be made of
linen and not paper/pulp.

My husband is a luthier and was planning to do a little work on it, however; he is reluctant to since he
feels this may be an original. The patina is of the correct era and the arching on the back in the
inside also appears to be of proper patina for its age. The arching itself is exquisitely done with the belly
higher than the back. The neck has been replaced with a modern neck but the scroll appears to match the timing of the body.
(Grafted scrollhead)
Any information you can provide would be appreciated.

Thank you, Christina Von Holstein

Mrs. Von Holstein:

This is Stephen Perry for Folk of the Wood. The
majority of the apparent Stainers turn out to be good
Tyrolean copies. I am not really that much of an
expert on Stainers. I've examined several, but my
memory isn't good enough to rely on the fine details.
I've put a call in to a friend of mine who may be able
to direct you to a Stainer expert. Otherwise, Chris
Reuning in Boston knows most major makers pretty well.

Steve Perry

Subject: Re: Fwd: "Stainer" violin

Dear folkwood, I have a very old violin.
Inside is a label that reads Jacobus Stainer in Absam Proper 1629. The
29 is hand written. Most of the copies that I have seen have
Stainer stamped on the back of the violin, or say that it is a copy on
the label. Mine does not have either of these things. The violin
does not have any apparant corner blocks inside of it. I know little
about the violin, except that it appears to be very old. Any
information that you would be able to provide for me would be greatly
appreciated. If you would like me to send you some pictures, I
would be able to do that. Thanks, Trevor Johnson

Mr. Johnson,

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. Your violin
is overwhelmingly certain to be a fairly
undistinguished copy, probably German. Vast numbers
of these were made. Some make quite nice fiddles and
are popular.

Please let me know if I can be of any further service.

Steve Perry
Gianna Violins

See http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmah/violstai.htm
for more information.
Smithsonian Institution
Instrument Makers of the Stainer Family

Jacob (Absam, Austria, c. 1617-83) is the earliest and most important Austrian violin maker whose model influenced violin making in Germany, parts of Italy and several other countries. It is not known where he learned his trade, but his painstaking and elegant craftsmanship indicate that he may have had an association with the great makers of Cremona, Italy, particularly the Amati family. His instruments were in demand all over Europe until the appearance of those made by Antonio Stradivari, whose flatter and broader models had greater power. Stainer's instruments, however, are still cherished and can hold their own with the best of Cremonese makers. Many imitations of his work exist, but his creations are so personal and original that genuine examples can be recognized by an expert in the field.

Some characteristic features of his instruments are the relatively broad lower back, higher arching of the belly than the back, beautifully cut scrolls and, in some cases, beautifully carved heads of lions, angels, or women, and varnish ranging in color from amber to orange-red, comparable in brilliance to Cremonese varnish.

Jacob Stainer violins are comparatively rare today. A few violas, including a viola di bordone and a viola bastarda, are known. Few, if any, violoncellos exist that are known to be of his hand; his double-basses are of great rarity. Also extant are some viola da gambas and viola da gambas that were converted to violoncellos.

Typical label: Jacobus Stainer in Absam
prope Oenipontum fecit 1663
(i.e., made near Oenipontus, Latin for "Innsbruck")

Marcus (c. 1633-93), often erroneously described as Jacob=s brother, lived first at Absam, then at Küfstein, and finally at Laufen, and is thought to have been a monk. He made only a small number of instruments, several of which may have been passed off as Jacob's work.

Typical label: Marcus Stainer
bügerl: Lautten und
Geigenmacher in Küfstein
in Tyrol, 1647
(i.e., citizen: lute and violin maker, etc.)

Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Stainer violin late 1900`s inherited my grandfather from Belgium

Dear folkwood,

Attached pictures of the head of the violin of my grandfather from around the late 1900`s. I was told by a violin builder John Pringle, that the head was very unusual. Is there a way one can find out from the head or its style where this violin comes from?
It has the common inscription of Stainer, etc.

Regards.

Paul.

Mr. Jadot:

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. I don't
know of any way to determine exactly where this violin
came from. Many shops used heads on some of their
violins. I suspect the necks with carved heads were
created by specialists and then purchased to put on
local bodies, further complicating the issue. The
closest head I can find is on a fancy violin sold by
Metropolitan Music in their 1935 catalog, labeled no.
55 for $27. This doesn't look quite as startled.
Metropolitan doesn't indicate the source.

I suspect you won't be able to trace the origin.
Regards

Steve Perry

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 18:44:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gianna Violins <mail@giannaviolins.com

Hi there Mickey

I have a copy of a Jocobus Stainer vioin with the "STAINER" stamp at the base of the back of the neck and the label inside reading: Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum 1700. I am very keen to find out when and where this instrument may have been made? I am assuming the 1700 is not an actual indication of its age. It has no remarkable features on the scroll and is amber/brown in colour with a lighter back. The wood is thin towards the shoulders and thicker at the belly/f holes.

Is there any information your luthier could give me about this instrument? Or a website that I could go to for detailed information about Stainer violins? The instrument is currently in pieces and I would like to restore it and play it - as it has been in my family for at least 100 years! I look forward to hearing from you. Thank You, Josephine Byrne.

Ms. Byrne:

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. Stainer
violins matching the description you give were made in
vast numbers over many decades from the middle of the
19th Century. There is little way for anyone to come
up with an exact age or source except matching the
violin to descriptions and illustrations in old
catalogs. Roy Ehrhardt publishes 3 volumes of catalog
reprints. This is a difficult process and I can't
really recommend it. Some violins are easy to match,
but these old Stainers are not among them.

Information on Stainer is provided at:

http://rperras.tripod.com/index.htm

Please let me know if I can help you any more.

Regards,

Steve Perry
--- Mickey Cochran < wrote:
Delivered-To: folkwood@titania.zianet.com
Delivered-To: alias-filterme-
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 23:34:11 +0800
Subject: Jacobus Stainer Violin - Copy
From: "Josephine Byrne" <jobyrne@iinet.net.au
To:
X-Priority: 3
X-Qmail-Scanner-Message-ID:
<108247518366396637@titania.zianet.com

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 19:01:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Stainer violin

Hi Mickey,

I also have a Stainer violin, with much of the same information other people have inquired about. It has Stainer stamped on the back, which from what I've read here means it is a copy. The label inside reads: "Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum 1765" with the17 being stamped and the 65 written next to it in pencil. Below that it says "Made in Germany".

I would like to know more about this violin, so any information you can share would be great. It's value to me is purely sentimental, since it was my grandfathers. I'm just curious about it's origins.

Thank you, Doe

Doe:

Many different producers made a large number of
violins labeled this way from about 1890 until WWII.
There's no way to find the specific origin from the
label alone. Sometimes we can match a specific violin
to a catalog image, but usually these are untraceable.

Regards,

Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood.

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:36:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Jacobus Stainer

Dear Mickey, I have inherited my father's old violin. My father brought it home to England from Austria at the end of the war after serving with the British Forces. Upon looking at the label it reads "Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum 1636". This label is printed with the exception on the last two ciphers (36) which are hand-written. At the moment it is being restored by a well-known violin maker/restorer in The Netherlands where I now live. He is of the opinion that it is a well made Bohemian violin of approx. 100/150 years old. I will receive a certificate from the restorer regarding the quality of this violin. I wish to sell this instrument and would like to have your opinion of it's worth. I shall be in Philadelphia in August/September and could bring the violin with me for sale. Best wishes, Ann Weyts Ricketts

Ms. Ricketts,

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. Many
Stainer copies were made in the last 200 years. They
vary greatly in quality. The Bohemian ones are
sometimes quite nice. I sold one for $2000. To get
an idea of the value of yours, search on eBay for
others. You may be able to find a close match and see
what it went for. The final auction price is likely
below what a shop would get you on a consignment sale.
The more quickly you desire to sell, the less money
you should expect.

There are several fine shops in Philadelphia. Do be
careful of low offers to buy that come quickly. I
will be happy to look at images and give my opinion.
I do sell violins on consignment if they are nice.

Regards,

Steve Perry

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 04:14:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Stainer violin

Dear Mickey,

In the late 1930s in Germany my father acquired a violin deemed to be a Stainer violin. It has no label but is very pretty, with a lion's head scroll with ivory teeth (one is missing), a top that is clearly hand-carved, and a slightly bulging belly. I have had it appraised by the Brobst Violin Shop in Alexandria, VA, where it has been appraised for $1,500 in May 2001 and described as follows:

"A violin after Jacobus Stainer, bearing an illegible label. The back is made from a single piece of maple with narrow flame.
The sides are made from similar wood, while the scroll is plain. The top is made from two pieces of spruce with very fine grain. The varnish is an amber-brown color. The length of the back is 359mm."

Could you tell me how I might establish the origin of this violin? From reading your answers to questions about the Stainer violin, I deduce that mine may be a good copy of an original. I play this violin and like its sound. Thank you for any suggestions you can make.

Sincerely, Lilli Vincenz

Dr. Vincenz:

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. These
violins were mostly made in Germany. Some perhaps
came from Austria. I cannot think of any expert in
the exact origin of commercial German violins,
especially older ones. Many small shops and larger
operations came and went for decades.

Regards,

Steve Perry

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:10:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Stainer 1736

Mickey,

My grand father played first violin in an
orchestra in Hasselt,
Belgium during the end of the 19th
century/beginning 20th. I
inherited his violin through my father, just last
week.

It caries a label JACOBUS STAINER IN ABSAM
PROPO OENIPONTUM 1736

It is in very good condition and would like to
recondition it.
Where can I have this done?

Is this a valuable instrument?

Regards.

Paul.

Paul:

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. Authentic
Stainers are worth a great deal of money. Almost all
the Stainer label violins out there are copies. Some
are very good and work extremely well. Some are not
so good. All bear similar labels. Values range from
nothing to several thousand.

I can recondition the violin. Most specialty shops
have luthiers capable of doing a good job. I'm
actually a maker as well, so I may have a different
perspective.
Let me know if I can answer any additional questions.

Steve Perry

Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2004 09:49:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Jacobus Stainer m Absam Violin

Mr. Nathan,

This is Steve Perry for Folk of the Wood. This violin
looks like many of the late 19th to early 20th C trade
violins imported under various labels. It has no
value over its utilitarian value, that is, value from
provenance or origin. The retail price one could
expect to receive depends on condition and tone - on
its usefulness as an instrument. This I cannot fairly
evaluate in detail via images. The mechanical tuners
seem less popular in most circles. In general, I see
violins like this in good shape going for from $100 to
perhaps $400. The flood of good new violins on the
market has somewhat depressed demand.
Regards,

Stephen Perry

Attached are photos of the above mentioned violin the markings inside indicate "prope Oenipontum 17". Can you provide any information? I would like to know the value. It has a new bridge and I suspect the tuners are not original. There was an old box of resin in case from Dresden, d 29-oct-1850 made by Carl Lipinski.

Thanks
Joe Nathan

Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:47:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Stainer Violin

Shelley,

I received your recent inquiry to Mickey at Folk of
the Wood. Stainer copies were made in fairly good
numbers until WWII. Earlier ones do not say "made in
Germany" on the label. Some are quite good. Some are
horribly built. Most are about average student
instruments. It is difficult to put an age on one
without seeing it, and even then it is a guess.

I have no personal knowledge of violin shops in
Louisiana.
Regards,
Steve Perry

Subject: Stainer Violin
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:25:00 -0600

Dear Mickey,

I have what I believe to be a copy of a Stainer violin. It has
Stainer stamped on the back and on in the inside
it says "Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope oenipontum 16. There is
something written in pencil after the 16. It looks like a number
but could be a letter. I couldn't make it out. I know this
instrument is probably not worth a lot money wise, but I have
reason to believe that it could have belonged to my great
grandfather who lived in the mid 1800 hundreds and died in the 1940s. I
just would like to know how I can tell the age of this instrument or
when the last copies of the Stainers were made.
Also do you know a good shop in Louisiana that I could take this
violin to for some work. I am a clarinetist and I
don't know a lot about string instruments. I would like to
restore this violin as it looks like it is in pretty good shape. Any
help you can give is appreciated.
Shelly L. Baker, LA

Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:41:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Stainer violin

Mr. McWhirter,

Jacob Stainer lived from 1617 to 1693. Very few of
his original instruments exist. I've seen a few.
Marcus Stainer lived from 1633 to 1693. Thus neither
of the two well-known Stainers was alive in 1739.
This may well be a Stainer copy of some sort. That
said, if it is an early 18th C Austrian school violin,
then it is likely very nice.

Relatively few experts exist on Austrian instruments.
Is there any way you could me some images,
including closeup of the scroll and its junction with
the neck?

Something to keep in mind is that numerous copies have
been made. It seems more likely for a copy to have
ended up in Nova Scotia than for a real one to have
ended up there. How was the 1739 date arrived at? I
am usually happy to get with a 40 year window on the
date of an older violin.

Regards,
Stephen Perry
Luthier
Gianna Violins

Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:14:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gianna Perry <giannaviolins@yahoo.com

Dear Ms. Touin:

The famous maker Jacob Stainer never stamped his
instruments on the back. This stamp is exclusively
found on much later copies. Nevertheless, some copies
are good violins and bring a decent price. I have
recently seen two priced at over $2000. I understand
that very high quality copies also exist that are
excellent and worth substantially more, but I expect
these would not be stamped and would be copies of
specific surviving Stainer violins, such as the pair
in the Smithsonian. Unfortunately, some copies are
quite worthless if they are made with very thick upper
and lower surfaces (plates). A good shop will be able
to tell you about the quality of yours.

Please write if you have additional questions.

Subject: question re. supposed Stainer violin
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 00:37:54 -0700

Dear Mickey:
A friend ed me one of your FAQs re. Stainer violins after seeing mine that has been in our family, but unplayed, for ages. It needs a little bit of work and I was hoping she could help me so I might start learning on it (I'm a pianist by trade). I read the 5/10/01 question from someone whose violin had the name on the inside and outside, and then went to the site you recommended at si.edu .

My question is this - mine has Stainer stamped on the back, but it does have almost exactly the label inside as described on the si.edu site - it says this: "Jacobus Stainer in Absam prope Oenipontum 1642". Is this anything I should get excited about? And is it possible that this instrument is truly that old? I don't know long it's been in our family, but it's been awhile. My mother was told it was an Irish fiddle...

I'd be truly grateful if you could find time to drop me an answer to this. I'm going to take it in soon to get the work done on it, but would love to have any more information to take with me.

Thanks very much, in advance -
best regards,
Kathie Touin

Greetings Kathie,

I've forwarded your questions to our house expert:
Steve Perry...He will be able to further assist you with the
specifics of your violin.
He also does amazing restoration work on violins.

Let us know if we can be of further assistance. FOTW