Frequently Asked Questions About Octave Mandolins

Date: Wed, 04 Sep 2002 23:16:47 -0400

Mickey

Greetings Fred,

Glad to assist you further if I can:

Your advice on mandos was so good, and I LOVE the Rigel A+ you sold me a couple of years ago, that I am hoping you can advise me regarding an octave mandolin.

My wife has gotten a folk harp, 26 strings, similar I think to The Clarenbridge Harp, Amergin. She plans to play more folky music than celtic. I am considering what to use for accompaniment in addition to guitar, that can provide backup plus melody, with a bit more tonal complexity to contrast with the harp's purity.

The mando is too high, choppy etc. I have been thinking of trying to trade a Breedlove Quartz K-F I have for a mandola, and last weekend had the opportunity to play a number of mandolas and octave mandolins. Although we did not have the harp with us, it was the octave mando that struck me as the best fit.

Most definitely...the mandola is very similar to a mandolin in tonal range...the octave is drastically different...and, the octave would provide a bottom end and serve as a back-up instrument with a full bass response.

I appreciate your opinion regarding this impression, and range and tonality of octave mando as it fits or not with this harp.

Of the instruments we played, the octave we liked best for this was the Weber Sage 2.
I see you carry a number of brands in addition to Weber.

My octave is a Weber Big Sky...I've also played the Sage 2 and found it to have more aliveness than the archtop octaves...it would make a better solo or duet instrument than an archtop. An archtop octave would serve well when playing in a larger ensemble since it will slice through a wall of sound.

The Trinity and Johnson have scale lengths in the 20 inch range. The Weber is 23 1/2. This seems to me a big difference. Although I expect that the shorter scale enhances open position playability, can you comment on the sound? ( It seems to me that the shorter scale, with the same string, must be lower tension, possibly more buzz.)

I believe this to be true...there seems to be a lot less buzz problems on the Webers than on any of the import octaves I've played. We set up the Trinity and Johnson octave so that they have minimal buzzing problems (even so, there's going to be a slight buzzing on most all octaves which gives it some character)...we usually never have to touch a Weber on set up...other than setting up to a customer specifications. The stretch for notes in the open position is less on a shorter scale length; I, personally, have no problem on the Weber...

Next, the Johnson MA-550 claims "better sound". Can you describe for me a little about the differnces as you perceive them between this instrument, the Weber Sage, and a real celtic style like the Mid Mo and Trinity.

The MA-550 has a deeper sound...I'm not sure I'd classify that as a "better sound"...the text on the info page, for the MA-550, was taken directly from the manufacturer. Some may prefer the deeper sound; others may not. Due to its deeper body, there is a nice low resonance that other octaves do not come close to...since the body is deeper, there is some sacrifice to projection. The Weber Sage is a solidly built octave with a nice bright tone...lots of resonance and good projection...the Mid-Mo offers a tremendous value for an American made instrument. It is somewhat lighter built than the Weber...this may contribute to a little more aliveness in tonal quality...both the Weber and Mid-Mo are pro-quality instruments.

Sincerely, Mickey

Thanks very much for your time, Mickey.
I really do love the Rigel

Fred

Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 15:41:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: I'm drawing a blank and it's killing me

Greetings Rohn,

Glad to assist...

What is the song you are playing on the Trinity College Octave Mandolin
Video Sampler #2 Flatpicking Version?
http://www.folkofthewood.com/page307.htm

This one is the timeless classic: "Sailor's Hornpipe"...an old-time hornpipe that came to be associated with "Popeye's Theme"...a great scalar exercise in the key of G.

I know I should know but I'm drawing a complete blank on it - after a week
of "suffering" I've decided to suck in my pride and just ask ;-)

I've been thinking about adding an Octave Mandolin to my stash of
instruments and that's what brought me to the video sampler pages.
Currently I'm tossing about the idea of the TC or the Johnson, leaning a
bit toward the Johnson - it sounds like it has "more sound" for playing
not in a group atmosphere. (although to be honest the idea of a bouzouki
is extremely tempting as well, but I'm cautious of the "stretch" it'll
have as compared to a mandolin)

You're right in your estimation...the zook is more difficult to play due to the reach. I, personally, am more of an octave player...since I've been a long-time mando player, graduating to the octave and the mandola was far easier than learning to play the zook...they're all fun to play just the same...

Anyway... thanks for putting the video samplers up. It makes it very nice
to see what the instrument's particulars are (especially when combined
with your awesome photos!)... of course it does too make it more difficult
to choose! :-)

You're most welcome...let me know if you have any further questions on octaves, mandolas or zooks...I'm at your disposal...Mickey

Thanks again,
Rohn

Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:47:04 -0400

Mickey,
Thanks for the info, I'm sorry to keep asking question, but from what I have seen on you web site, you are the man to ask. I have read several of your FAQ, but I still am not sure what an octave mandolin is. Would this help me in my quest to find a bigger Instrument with a Mandolin - bluegrass sound.

Thanks Abunch.

David L

David,

The Octave Mandolin is another long-scale instrument that would fit your hands even better than the mandola (its neck is even longer than a mandola's). It's also tuned exactly like a mandolin only one octave lower. There are some phenomenal exponents of this instrument...such as Tim O'Brien, who have take this instrument through just about every genre possible including bluegrass. However, the Octave Mandolin is still not a bluegrass instrument per se...and, it's not accepted as a bluegrass instrument. If you're looking for a traditional bluegrass instrument, the standard mandolin would still be your best choice.

An Octave Mandolin, similar to the Mandola, is commonly played within Celtic and Folk music settings...it's a versatile instrument and has an ancient history dating back to the lute.

Hope this helps...

Mickey

russ godfrey Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 03:37 pm
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Chuck, the McIntyre is a piezo disc not a featherweight and it may just work for you...try it....then tell me...heh, heh....I have no problems with the nut and the different string gauge on the Trinity but i'm not sure how it would be on the Weber....it may sit right at the bottom of the string slot but you can always wedge it up a tad with something and i don't see how that would harm the nut at all. And i relate completely to the "sound shift" phenomena....i use the O/M in gigs way more than the mandolin. Our guitarist and I had to work out "space" issues as the tonal quality can be quite similar, but we found a happy medium. "B band is a pick-up company from sweden (i think) and a freind of mine from Missouri knows quite a lot about them. He uses them on his guitars and swears by them. I'll contact him off-line and get him to talk to you on this thread. They are a filament mylar(?) band and i'm told that the material that's used for the pickup is used in medical areas for the heart...how and what, i don't know. My friends name is Joe Mendel and he'll explain it to us. You have to use their transducer but Joe syas there is ZERO feedback no matter how lod the amp is and it's the pickup he says that comes closest to a true acoustic sound. By the way, he's ordered a Sawchyn O/M...his, too arrives in July. There is a phenomena about the Absaroka O/M that Mickey Cochran from Folk of the Wood helped me out with. I was thinking "this is the quietest acoustic instrument i've played" and he confirms that the player is behind the sound and the projection is thrown way out there. Is that what you mean by not being able to hear yourself? Mickey says that the bridger with the oval hole is much easier for the player to hear as some of the sound projects upwards. The only other thing i can suggest is to shorten your strap and wear it higher on your body. And i forgot to answer some of your earlier questions. I had my fellow bandmate in mandolirium install the strap button on the heel of the O/M like a guitar...if you do thata, make sure you get someone who knows what they are doing!.... And as for technique, i'm hopeless. I'm totally self-taught and i do EVERYTHING wrong...but i do play fiddle tunes, i just choose then very carefully. If you can find the first Arty McGlynn album (I can't recall the name but he has only two and the 2nd is called Causeway) there is an awesome tune called "Lead the Knave" and it's perfect for O/M...ist position, too...Mostly, i write the ones i play. Chromatic runs can be tricky. Mickey from FOTW has put out a pretty good instructional video on the O/M and i highly recommend it...it affordable and he is a darn fine player...i'm looking forward to meeting him one day and jamming with him. On the video, he breaks the tunes down into segments and shows the proper fingering, too. It has helped me a lot. Wish i had it when i started out. I've learned lots of bad habits. I'll contact him today and get him on this thread, too. He is an amazing resource about the O/m and has proven to be a very knowledgeable troubleshooter for me.Hope this helps and i'll get those other guys on this thread. Cheers!

By Mickey Cochran Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 06:50 pm:

Hi Russ,

Russ, you've seemed to cover the topic and questions with authoritative thoroughness...I'm not sure if I can add anything of value but I'll try...

The McIntyre just recently went from the piezo transducer disc to the feather style...I personally cannot see the difference. McIntrye makes a great pick-up that seems to reproduce acoustic properties well. Although, the lowest common denominator would be the sound reinforcement utilized after the choice of transducer. This means that the instrument is no longer the critical factor as much as the settings on your amp/pa. Therefore, outside of playability, the choice of woods and quality of acoustic tone, no matter how much you've paid for your octave, would no longer be relevant once plugged in. When playing with a band that consists of drums and electric bass, the transducer is your best option. If playing in a completely acoustic setting, a good mic would at the very least recreate the finer qualities of your octave.

You should not have to change your nut or adjust the bridge when installing lighter gauge octave strings above the D and A. When playing melodies that lean on the D and A strings, you'll find the octave strings will ad more presence.

Unfortunately, and depending on your action set-up, you may encounter more buzzing after the installation...since these strings do not have as much pull on the neck as the heavier gauged standard octave strings. You'd have to raise your action slightly after the installation. If you have a flat style octave, with the flat style non-adjustable bridge, raising the action is very difficult; with archtops, you only have to raise the adjustable bridge. To date, I've never seen an adjustable flat style bridge for mandolin family instruments. I wish they existed for it would make our job quite a bit easier on flat style set-ups.

Thank you Russ for the kind words...I must say that Russ himself is a superb Octaver who plays a mean Octave...I've got one of his CDs and know this for a fact!

Mickey
Folk of the Wood

Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:41:01 -0600
From: Russell Godfrey
Subject: Octave Mandolin Video

By the way, the video is GREAT! I can actually learn some stuff to improve how I play.....seriously! I like how you play, I think you have a
very tasty style and your O/M sounds great!

Thanks so much for the positive update...it inspires me to work harder on future video projects. It also means a lot coming froming you...

The McIntyre pick up in my absaroka doesn't cut it for me sound-wise, too boxy,
tub-like sounding...I'm thinking of adding a "fishman" piezo to it along with the
McIntyre and have the two together. Do you see any problems that I should be aware
of?

I'd probably remove the McIntyre in the effort of installing another piezo; otherwise, you might encounter some out of phase problems. ...additionally, first try the piezo on different spots on top of the soundboard for best placement...then install permanently under the soundboard at the exact same spot that best met your expectations. You can then resell the McIntyre pick-up to recoup your costs.

I think the twinning them may give me the missing element that I seek. Have you
heard of anyone else doing this?

I've never heard of two separate piezos working simultaneously...although, it's your experiment, and it just might work. Now, I have seen piezos installed with mini-mics...which work to keep a balance of electric and acoustic properties.

Let me know. I'd appreciate any info you can give
me. Once again, congrats on the video. I'll be using it for sure. I know that it
will help me. I really do like your style.

Thanks again for your valued input. Mickey

Hey Mickey! What can I say about the Johnson Octave Mandolin that you
don't already know? It's everything you told me it would be. The deeper
body depth gives it a wonderful resonance and the tone of it is clear
and sweet like you said. Great acoustic volume and not overbearing...I
love it...it's a close second favorite to my Weber Absaroka O/M. It's
real cute to look at, too. But I can't say enough about the tone of
this remarkably affordable instrument. Very warm, rosy, with great
sustain. The action was perfect! You folks do great set-ups! I love the
neck. It is a welcome addition to my instrument family and one that I
ain't gonna part with! Thanks again for your advice and instrument
savvy! You really do know your stuff!

Hey Russ,

Thanks for the product review...I will post it on our Jnsn Octave page.

Hope all is well with you for now...Mickey

From: "ajay kalra"
Subject: trade in for octave mandolin
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:05:29 -0400

Dear Mickey,

I got a chance to play a Weber Sage 1 Octve Mandolin at a Guitar Center outlet and immediately fell in love. This was however not the first time that I played an octave mandolin. The first time was two years back when I had been playing the regular mandolin only for 4 months. At that time I had a chance of comparing a $15OO Weber with a $415 Trinity College octave, and did not feel that I could make any music on the Trinity, while the Weber seemed to play itself!

The Webers still appear out of my reach, however you may be able to help me out here. Your site stocks two octave mandolins that you sell at $415 each- The Trinity College and the Johnson Octave Mandolin Celtic MA-450. I would appreciate your opinion on which one plays better and comes closer to the WEBER Sage 1 in terms of sound, playability of the neck, and staying in tune. Ajay

No doubt, the Weber does blow away the Octave imports offered by both Trinity College and Johnson...even so, for the value, the Trinity College and Johnson are superb, solid wood Octaves. Here's my surmise: it's a good possibility that the Trinity College octave you originally tried was not properly set up. Keep in mind, most every TC Octave we get in has to be adjusted for ease of playability...bridge sanding, strings replaced, etc. They've always shipped from the factory to us with an unwound "A" string...these just sound horrible until we replace the strings with a wound "A" set...

Now, both the Johnson and the Trinity College are essentially the same instrument in every respect. They only differ with their aesthetic appointments: headstock inlay and design...

Neither comes close to the sound of the Weber Sage #1...both do have a nice, well-rounded tone with decent volume...and their value is unsurpassed considering that they're made with solid woods. Mickey

I would also like to know your price on the Weber Sage 1.

Weber Flat Octave Mandolins
Sage # 1 #2
#1 $ 1,300 Retail Your Price: 1040.00
#2 $ 1,570 Retail Your Price: 1256.00

Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:30:33 -0600
Subject: Octave mando questions
From: Liam Graham

Thanks for the quick response! Here's what I'm
thinking about:
I have a few questions about octave mandolins ...
1) Is there much difference between the Trinity
College and the Johnson Celtic model? Which do you
think is the better instrument?

No...these two instruments are essentially the same...other than minor appointments such as headstock design...inlay...and name brand.

2) Are there any tuning key, bridge and tailpiece
upgrades available? I was thinking of maybe a Weber
tailpiece and having a Brekke bridge fitted? Would
either of those be worthwhile on this level
instrument?

No...these instruments are fine stock from the factory...changing the tailpiece will not change its tone perceptibly...we have brekke bridges in stock...but, they are all shaped for an archtop. I still believe the bridges that comes stock on both the Trinity College and the Johnson work fine...to date, I've never found an adjustable flat style bridge...such as the Brekke.

3) I suppose I should check out the Weber Sage
#1 octave mando, while I'm at it ... ;-)

These are superb octave mandolins...although, keep in mind, if they don't meet your budget now, you can always trade up from a Trinity College, or a Johnson Celtic, at a later date.

4) Are you familiar with David Freshwater's
instruments? He makes what seem to be very nice
instruments (including a 5-course cittern and
longer-scale 5-course bouzouki) that fall in between
the Trinity College and lower-end Weber prices.

No...haven't seen or heard of Freshwater's instruments...does he have a website? I'd love to see what he's accomplishing...and, you're right, there's a big gap between the imports and the Webers.

5) Do you have any padded gigbags for octave mandos, or just cases?

Sure, we carry gig bags that fit the octaves...they retail at 59.95...we sell them for 39.95.

6) Finally, is Mickey's octave mando book out yet? I definitely want the video, but a book would be great too ...

I'm currently working on the book...it will be a compilation of most all major octave players with an emphasis on developing technique. The book will still be more of an intermediate to advanced level...if you'll master the video first, the book will be easier to tackle.

Well, I think that's about it. As I said in my
original , thank you so much for all of the soul
and passion that you've managed to put into your
website. Just browsing, reading, and listening has
been a great experience. Your policies for trade-in
and trade-up are unique, and I look forward to doing
lots of repeat business with you! Maybe I'll get out
to NM one of these days and stop by.

Thanks so much for the kind words regarding our website...and, please come by if you're ever in our neck of the woods...Mickey

Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 00:07:30 -0400
From: Laura Selden
Subject: Crosspicking Questions

Dear Laura,

Thanks again for your attentive efforts...we sincerely appreciate your taking a stand for us on COMando. If I can ever return the favor in some way, let me know.

Well I have been lusting after the sound of a mandola and, more recently, an octave mandolin...LOL. I just received a new A-model from Bill Bussman a few weeks ago. (It's a good 'un, too!) I think I'll try to build my next instrument....

Well, you just let me know when and if you're ready for a mandola or an octave...I'd be glad to assist you in any way and will even grant a further discount than what we currently offer. I've recently finished the only instructional video on Octave Mando in existence: "An Intro to the Octave Mandolin" (great for the tab impaired)...because of your assistance and support on COMando, I'd be more than glad to send you a complimentary tape. (just me your address) And, if you wouldn't mind, maybe you could give a short review of it on COMando (not required though...but no doubt, a great help to me since it had just been released).

I believe I'm a rumor in my own time. I do write for Mel Bay publications: both guitar and mandolin..."Mandolin Crosspicking Technique" is one of my titles...I also write for Mandolin Cafe...their crosspicking section...

THAT'S IT!!! I knew I had seen your name somewhere--at the top of all those crosspicking lessons that I downloaded. I had good intentions, but I am tablature--and even more so--practice-impaired.

What do you think of use of the Shuffler crosspicking algorithm of DDU for crosspicking the mando--as opposed to the McReynolds one (I think it is UUD?)?

I know there's been a lot of controversy regarding the perfect crosspicking pattern...truly though, the upshot would be what works for what player during what passage is completely subjective. I truly believe that what I call "Crosspicking Independence" is far more contributory to your technique than just following one pattern. With independence in pattern choices, you have so much more to fall back on and so many more ways to create textured arpeggios for both melody and back-up. I love the possibilities that lay before me when I flatpick a chordal passage and am not locked into any one pattern.

One day I was listening to sound bites of the different octave mandolins on your site, and I thought that the imports (Johnson/Trinity College--they are the same, aren't they?) sounded as good or better than a lot of the more expensive ones. I think I listened to a Weber and a Mid-Mo, too. How do you think these compare tone and construction -wise? (BTW, there was some really nice picking in them thar samples....)

In construction, the Weber beats them all...they are built solid from the word go! Now, for price value, the Johnson and Trinity College can't be beat...they're constructed with solid woods and both offer decent tonal quality and ease of playability. The Mid-Mo does make a mandola that again, is probably the best US-Made value today...but, they are more delicate than the Webers in construction. This can be contributory to a lighter more responsive tone though...

Since I am gearing up for a new hobby (lutherie!), I am interested in what you as a player have to say regarding tone, construction, etc. Recently, I read Lawrence Smart's article about mando construction in a back issue of _American Lutherie_, and he mentions that he has had people commission instruments that could be tuned as both an mandola AND an octave mandolin. Do you think the scale length required for this would make the instrument extremely hard to finger? I am muscularly weak due to a physical problem, so this part really concerns me.

That truly sounds impossible...Lawrence sure must be "Smart" to have achieved this...to tune an Octave up to a Mandola would put too much stress on the neck (the scale length being inversely proportionate to the tautness/pitch ratio)...now, tuning a Mandola to an Octave, if the Mandola is the average Mandola size, you'll encounter nothing but rattle...

I've been thinking that koa or one of its closely related cousins would make good back/side wood for a mandola or octave mandolin. I've been toying with the idea of trying to build one of these with koa b/s and a redwood top. (This would be a future project, of course<g. Koa ain't cheap.) What do you think of the koa/redwood combination?

I'm not too sure...I suspect you'll attain a lot of mellowness...and certainly, the instrument would have a warm tone...let me know how it goes.

Sincerely, Mickey

Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:07:08 -0400
Subject: Tuning for Octave Mandolin

Hello,
I bought a trinity college octave mando from you, and i don't feel like
it has the low end to be an octave. so i am wondering if i can string it
up as a mandola. Your input would be helpful. I really don't enjoy
playing the instrument as it is now. I also have been in contact with you
in the past wondering about an upgrade to a weber, but I don;t know if i
can justify the expense at this time,
chris

Greetings Chris,

Nice to hear from you...and, we're glad to assist you with your questions:

Be aware, mandolas are tuned one-fifth lower than a mandolin bringing the tuning to:
CGDA

This poses a problem on a longer scale neck such as what the Octave offers...it would put far too much tension on the neck to bring it up to these notes...if you would go with a very light gauge string, you might be able to bring it up to the CGDA tuning...although, it would still be far more tension than the regular octave tuning...so, ultimately, I wouldn't recommend the CGDA tuning on an octave mandolin. If you truly would prefer to play mandola tuning, you might consider trading in your octave towards a mandola. Be aware, you have our 100% trade-up value on your TC Octave...Mickey